Successful Social Institutions come to be because they work. Discarding things because they seem old fashioned, or irrelevant is a mistake. The right has long pointed out the connection between absent fathers and crime. Single Parenting & Poverty has been an obvious result of divorce.
Less obvious is the process of developing mature well balanced people & society. The ability to live with & work through conflict is part of becoming a better human. Divorce often results in stunted immature people. We all know of that person who lives in a perpetual ground hog day of failed relationship after failed relationship never learning anything from the previous failures.
The additional layer is that of community. When a person is imbedded in a healthy community, it is harder to get away with bad behavior. In a healthy community there are always older more mature people who will call out bad behavior for what it is. That is also a part of a healthy marriage, because when older men are telling young men to stop being an "Asshole" and to treat her right that has real impact. Part of the real story is the lack of being part of healthy communities.
My life as a single Mom with a professional & stressful career (and an absentee ex-husband), since they were little (now 29 & 27), meant I was carrying the burden of both parents and made sure I surrounded myself with "a village" of family and friends to help provide them stability, security, love, good values and community.
Thank you for a powerful podcast. I look forward to reading the book. This is the first time I heard a willingness to discuss (outside of very private groups) whether gay marriage might have led to problems in society. It takes a lot of courage to even broach the topic, so I appreciate both of your willingness to do so. I think Andrea made some good points and that this is worthy of expanded conversation, though it is largely a third rail that most of society is afraid to approach. Between rethinking feminism and moving towards rethinking homosexual marriage, is it possible that we are ready to admit that the generation which made sweeping societal changes was not the most brilliant and enlightened that every lived? We threw out so much wisdom accrued over generations and somehow we are not living in Utopia and have even been moving further away from being a successful society.
This was fascinating. I would imagine that polyamory isn't a 'trend' so much as it is an ancient practice that actually did support the survival of the group. (Men off hunting, women left to tend the hearth fires and children, raising them, working together etc. . .) However our modern institutions and laws are likely less well set-up to accommodate polyamory than gay marriage, for example. Things like property rights, health care, immigration either become more complicated or impossible when there are more people than the heteronormative 'couple' involved. However, I would agree with the guest to the extent that there are people who seem more interested in being culturally relevant by practicing polyamory, than they are interested in the real practice of loving and living in an extended family.
Agreed. Polygamy usually is a practice in societies where being male is high risk. (lots of young men die either in war, or dangerous work such as hunting) In those societies it makes sense as it protects the children. Social practices survive because they make sense in the context in which they are practiced.
I loved this interview. And mentioning Candice Malcolm too was an unexpected and nice surprise. The case for marriage made me reflect on my parents and their extremely rocky often hyper emotional relationship while I was growing up. They stayed married through thick and thin and are still married today after 60 years (!) and now taking care of each other in old age; and relaxing in Mexico with their feet up. Did them staying together help in their health, longevity, overall happiness (and forgiveness for the past) and ultimately their financial prosperity? Yes, it did. Definitely.
Thank you for the debate.
Successful Social Institutions come to be because they work. Discarding things because they seem old fashioned, or irrelevant is a mistake. The right has long pointed out the connection between absent fathers and crime. Single Parenting & Poverty has been an obvious result of divorce.
Less obvious is the process of developing mature well balanced people & society. The ability to live with & work through conflict is part of becoming a better human. Divorce often results in stunted immature people. We all know of that person who lives in a perpetual ground hog day of failed relationship after failed relationship never learning anything from the previous failures.
The additional layer is that of community. When a person is imbedded in a healthy community, it is harder to get away with bad behavior. In a healthy community there are always older more mature people who will call out bad behavior for what it is. That is also a part of a healthy marriage, because when older men are telling young men to stop being an "Asshole" and to treat her right that has real impact. Part of the real story is the lack of being part of healthy communities.
My life as a single Mom with a professional & stressful career (and an absentee ex-husband), since they were little (now 29 & 27), meant I was carrying the burden of both parents and made sure I surrounded myself with "a village" of family and friends to help provide them stability, security, love, good values and community.
Thank you for this episode. Great topic.
Thank you for a powerful podcast. I look forward to reading the book. This is the first time I heard a willingness to discuss (outside of very private groups) whether gay marriage might have led to problems in society. It takes a lot of courage to even broach the topic, so I appreciate both of your willingness to do so. I think Andrea made some good points and that this is worthy of expanded conversation, though it is largely a third rail that most of society is afraid to approach. Between rethinking feminism and moving towards rethinking homosexual marriage, is it possible that we are ready to admit that the generation which made sweeping societal changes was not the most brilliant and enlightened that every lived? We threw out so much wisdom accrued over generations and somehow we are not living in Utopia and have even been moving further away from being a successful society.
This was fascinating. I would imagine that polyamory isn't a 'trend' so much as it is an ancient practice that actually did support the survival of the group. (Men off hunting, women left to tend the hearth fires and children, raising them, working together etc. . .) However our modern institutions and laws are likely less well set-up to accommodate polyamory than gay marriage, for example. Things like property rights, health care, immigration either become more complicated or impossible when there are more people than the heteronormative 'couple' involved. However, I would agree with the guest to the extent that there are people who seem more interested in being culturally relevant by practicing polyamory, than they are interested in the real practice of loving and living in an extended family.
Agreed. Polygamy usually is a practice in societies where being male is high risk. (lots of young men die either in war, or dangerous work such as hunting) In those societies it makes sense as it protects the children. Social practices survive because they make sense in the context in which they are practiced.
I loved this interview. And mentioning Candice Malcolm too was an unexpected and nice surprise. The case for marriage made me reflect on my parents and their extremely rocky often hyper emotional relationship while I was growing up. They stayed married through thick and thin and are still married today after 60 years (!) and now taking care of each other in old age; and relaxing in Mexico with their feet up. Did them staying together help in their health, longevity, overall happiness (and forgiveness for the past) and ultimately their financial prosperity? Yes, it did. Definitely.