Transcript: Darrell Bricker

An interview with the author of Breaking Point

One of the themes of the Lean Out podcast is the many crises that Canada is facing —and where we go from here. My guest on the program this week warns that we are at a breaking point, and in desperate need of a national reckoning. As we face threats from without, he says, we are divided from within, along the lines of gender, class, region, and, crucially, generation.

Darrell Bricker is the CEO of Ipsos Public Affairs and a previous director of public opinion research in the Prime Minister’s Office. His latest book, out this week — written with veteran journalist John Ibbitson — is Breaking Point: The New Big Shifts Putting Canada at Risk.

This is an edited transcript for paid subscribers. You can listen to the interview here.

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TH: One of the themes of this show has been trying to figure out what’s happened to Canada and where we go from here. Your new book with John Ibbitson, Breaking Point, provides a really important and useful contribution to that national conversation. To set this up for listeners, you argue in the book that Canada is at a breaking point, a moment of national reckoning. And that as we face existential threats from without, we are divided from within — along the lines of generation, region, gender, and class. One of the stats you quote in the book is that in 1995, 78% of Canadians were very proud to be Canadian. By 2024, that number had dropped to 34%. Let’s just start in broad strokes. Give us your diagnosis, how did we get here?

DB: Well, how we got here was basically generational. It’s something that’s been happening for generations, particularly since the end of the Second World War — in which Canada and Canadians were more than happy to allow the United States to take responsibility for our defence. And more than happy for us, over a period of time, to become more integrated with the U.S. economy. There was a book written in the early 1960s — actually 1965, it’s 60 years old today — called Lament for a Nation by George Grant. Grant asked a really interesting question, which was my kickoff point for the book. John had other things that he was thinking about, but this was my kickoff point for the book. Which was: Are Canadians a unique species on the North American continent? Are we actually unique? What is unique about us?

When Donald Trump stood up after the previous election — leaving aside the insults about Governor Trudeau and all the rest of it — he basically asked that question. He said, “I see this line on the map. It looks like it was drawn by somebody with a pen and a ruler.” He’s actually right. That’s what happened. He said the point about “you can’t defend yourselves.” True. He made the point about economic dependency on the United States. Also true. And he said, “We could solve all of your problems by simply integrating with the United States.” And I don’t think that we can not take him at his word, given that he’s delivered on so many things in the United States — as shocking as some of those things have been. So that’s why we’re at a breaking point. We’ve allowed ourselves to get to such a vulnerable position that a foreign leader can stand up and say something like that to us. In spite of the fact that our elbows are up, or whatever you want to call it. Beyond performative outrage, when you really look at the practicalities of what we can do about these things in the moment, relative to the United States, it’s not very much. Which raises the question: Okay, so how are we going to deal with this moment? That’s really what the book is about. How did we get here, why are we here, and how do we get out of here?

TH: It really could not be more timely. I want to tackle the generational piece first, and particularly where housing fits into this. It seems to me that the Boomer generation often underestimates how dire the situation is for younger people in this country. Seventy percent of people in Canada now believe the next generation will experience a lower standard of living compared to today. You write: “Younger Canadians are poorer, more indebted, and more economically precarious than any generation in modern history.” They have high housing prices, skyrocketing rents, high food costs, stagnant wages, high student debt, precarious work. All of this resulting in delayed life milestones and poor mental health. You point out these conditions are not shared by Boomers. Why is that?