As in, perhaps, the insane western media reaction to Russia finally taking their own measures after 15 years of pleading with western leaders of all stripes to stop the insanity of using NATO as a cudgel to bring them to heel. And 8 years of having to watch and try to bring a halt through endless, futile negotiation to the constant bomba…
As in, perhaps, the insane western media reaction to Russia finally taking their own measures after 15 years of pleading with western leaders of all stripes to stop the insanity of using NATO as a cudgel to bring them to heel. And 8 years of having to watch and try to bring a halt through endless, futile negotiation to the constant bombardment and killings by the Nazi backed Ukraine government of their Russian descendant citizens in The Donbass.
Well, I'm afraid I don't exactly share your point of view. There was conflict in the Donbass because Russian backed separatists were trying to secede from Ukraine! The Russians have not at all been angels in this scenario. Moreover, do you not see that Russian intervening in Ukraine, to protect ethnic Russian separatists in the Donbass, is a move straight out of Hitler's playbook with Czechoslovakia in the late 1930s, when Germany backed the ethnic German separatists in the Sudetenland, and then move into to occupy it and dismember Czechoslovakia into a rump state in order to "protect" the ethnic German separatists whom the Germans had encouraged???? Yes, American intelligence agencies engaged in brinksmanship which led to the current situation, and yes the Obama/Biden administrations engaged in hopeless corruption in Ukraine, not just through Joe, but Hunter, and then John Kerry's son, and others. But in the final analysis, of COURSE the Ukrainian government was going to try to use force to stop the separatists in the Donbass from leaving---just as much as the Czechs would do to keep the Sudetenland and the northern states in the U.S. did during the civil war. You cannot blame them for doing so, or excuse Russia from stirring up the separatist troubles. I'd say there is plenty of blame to go around. But the bottom line is that the Ukrainian government's attempts to put down an internal rebellion did not constitute a threat to international peace. The Russian wholesale invasion of Ukraine DOES constitute a massive breach of international peace, such as Europe has not really seen on its lands since, well, since Hitler marched soldiers into Sudetenland to protect the poor ethnic Germans there whom he had egged on to engage in separatist activities. That cannot stand. You cannot forbid a country from putting down an internal rebellion. But you can, and should, forbid a country from INVADING another country on the grounds of the longstanding pretext of protecting a common "ethnic" minority. You do that, and boundary lines all across central Europe are in trouble... It threatens massive destabilization.
You go to great lengths to compare the actions of Russia in this instance to the history of Nazi Germany, and then go on to justify the atrocious actions of the Nazi backed, illegitimate Ukraine government against a huge swath of their own peoples as being quite in order. Amazing. For 8 long years the "breakaway republics" endured devastating bombardments even after their government entered into an agreement to work with those republics to develop a constitution that recognized them as autonomous regions. An agreement ratified by the UN Security Council, no less. The ink was not even dry when the agreement became dust in the wind because the Nazi descendants wouldn't stand for it. If western nations wouldn't protect them even with UN backing, then whom? This is, and has been a matter that sane governments could have addressed years ago had they even deigned to listen to the Russians. But because they are Russians, to hell with their internal security concerns. Ukraine is not self-governing nor has it been since 1990. It has been a USA/NATO/EU lacky since gaining "independence" and as such a serious threat to Russian internal security. A fact stamped in stone with the 2014 coup.
Well, I described the parallel between Germany/Sudetenland and Russia/Donbass in detail because the comparison IS detailed. A larger country encouraging people belonging to its ethnic group to revolt against the government of a smaller country. These are just historic facts. Nor is it amazing that the Ukraine government (regardless of whether YOU consider it illegitimate) fights to maintain its own territorial integrity. If the Czechs had been able to hold onto the Sudetenland in 1938, and Neville Chamberlain et al. had not acquiesced, the conflict with Nazi Germany might have developped very differently. I do not share your penchant for calling people Nazis, other than the actual Nazis who ruled Germany many decades ago. And I think you are just obviously flat out wrong when you say that Ukraine has been a USA/NATO/EU lacky [sic] since 1990. That's just demonstrably not true. Indeed, up until the Orange Revolution in the early 2000s, the Ukrainian government was very heavily influenced by Russian interests. And then some years after the Orange Revolution, pro-Russian political forces once again retook control of the national government. And then control shifted again towards Western countries with the Maidan revolt of 2014. So, you're talking through your hat when you reduce the history of the conflict between the West and Russia for influence over the Ukraine to the false statement that every Ukraine government since 1990 has been a lackey [correct spelling here] to the West. You have some interesting points to make about the failure of the parties to follow up on an agreement to provide for more autonomy for the Donbass, but no doubt shifting allegiance from Russia to the West of successive Ukrainian governments, as well as violence on the part of Russian separatists, may well have played a role in these difficulties. All in all, I don't think your brand of vilifying Ukraine, while it may satisfy your apparent desire to indulge in purple rhetoric, captures the complexity of Ukrainian history...
The complex history of Ukraine is merely another exploitive portfolio of the American State Department. Such was to have been the fate of Russia beyond Yeltsin had the little known V. Putin not been thrust into the breech. Ukraine will always be the useful idiot to western governments as long as the lunatic Nazi fringe are encouraged and financed by them. As it is they must be really pissed at losing the massive economic potential of the eastern oblasts. Karma can be a bitch. In any event, thank you for the rose colored glasses view of events in Ukraine over the past 8 1/2 years. Now where is file 9?
As in, perhaps, the insane western media reaction to Russia finally taking their own measures after 15 years of pleading with western leaders of all stripes to stop the insanity of using NATO as a cudgel to bring them to heel. And 8 years of having to watch and try to bring a halt through endless, futile negotiation to the constant bombardment and killings by the Nazi backed Ukraine government of their Russian descendant citizens in The Donbass.
Well, I'm afraid I don't exactly share your point of view. There was conflict in the Donbass because Russian backed separatists were trying to secede from Ukraine! The Russians have not at all been angels in this scenario. Moreover, do you not see that Russian intervening in Ukraine, to protect ethnic Russian separatists in the Donbass, is a move straight out of Hitler's playbook with Czechoslovakia in the late 1930s, when Germany backed the ethnic German separatists in the Sudetenland, and then move into to occupy it and dismember Czechoslovakia into a rump state in order to "protect" the ethnic German separatists whom the Germans had encouraged???? Yes, American intelligence agencies engaged in brinksmanship which led to the current situation, and yes the Obama/Biden administrations engaged in hopeless corruption in Ukraine, not just through Joe, but Hunter, and then John Kerry's son, and others. But in the final analysis, of COURSE the Ukrainian government was going to try to use force to stop the separatists in the Donbass from leaving---just as much as the Czechs would do to keep the Sudetenland and the northern states in the U.S. did during the civil war. You cannot blame them for doing so, or excuse Russia from stirring up the separatist troubles. I'd say there is plenty of blame to go around. But the bottom line is that the Ukrainian government's attempts to put down an internal rebellion did not constitute a threat to international peace. The Russian wholesale invasion of Ukraine DOES constitute a massive breach of international peace, such as Europe has not really seen on its lands since, well, since Hitler marched soldiers into Sudetenland to protect the poor ethnic Germans there whom he had egged on to engage in separatist activities. That cannot stand. You cannot forbid a country from putting down an internal rebellion. But you can, and should, forbid a country from INVADING another country on the grounds of the longstanding pretext of protecting a common "ethnic" minority. You do that, and boundary lines all across central Europe are in trouble... It threatens massive destabilization.
You go to great lengths to compare the actions of Russia in this instance to the history of Nazi Germany, and then go on to justify the atrocious actions of the Nazi backed, illegitimate Ukraine government against a huge swath of their own peoples as being quite in order. Amazing. For 8 long years the "breakaway republics" endured devastating bombardments even after their government entered into an agreement to work with those republics to develop a constitution that recognized them as autonomous regions. An agreement ratified by the UN Security Council, no less. The ink was not even dry when the agreement became dust in the wind because the Nazi descendants wouldn't stand for it. If western nations wouldn't protect them even with UN backing, then whom? This is, and has been a matter that sane governments could have addressed years ago had they even deigned to listen to the Russians. But because they are Russians, to hell with their internal security concerns. Ukraine is not self-governing nor has it been since 1990. It has been a USA/NATO/EU lacky since gaining "independence" and as such a serious threat to Russian internal security. A fact stamped in stone with the 2014 coup.
Well, I described the parallel between Germany/Sudetenland and Russia/Donbass in detail because the comparison IS detailed. A larger country encouraging people belonging to its ethnic group to revolt against the government of a smaller country. These are just historic facts. Nor is it amazing that the Ukraine government (regardless of whether YOU consider it illegitimate) fights to maintain its own territorial integrity. If the Czechs had been able to hold onto the Sudetenland in 1938, and Neville Chamberlain et al. had not acquiesced, the conflict with Nazi Germany might have developped very differently. I do not share your penchant for calling people Nazis, other than the actual Nazis who ruled Germany many decades ago. And I think you are just obviously flat out wrong when you say that Ukraine has been a USA/NATO/EU lacky [sic] since 1990. That's just demonstrably not true. Indeed, up until the Orange Revolution in the early 2000s, the Ukrainian government was very heavily influenced by Russian interests. And then some years after the Orange Revolution, pro-Russian political forces once again retook control of the national government. And then control shifted again towards Western countries with the Maidan revolt of 2014. So, you're talking through your hat when you reduce the history of the conflict between the West and Russia for influence over the Ukraine to the false statement that every Ukraine government since 1990 has been a lackey [correct spelling here] to the West. You have some interesting points to make about the failure of the parties to follow up on an agreement to provide for more autonomy for the Donbass, but no doubt shifting allegiance from Russia to the West of successive Ukrainian governments, as well as violence on the part of Russian separatists, may well have played a role in these difficulties. All in all, I don't think your brand of vilifying Ukraine, while it may satisfy your apparent desire to indulge in purple rhetoric, captures the complexity of Ukrainian history...
The complex history of Ukraine is merely another exploitive portfolio of the American State Department. Such was to have been the fate of Russia beyond Yeltsin had the little known V. Putin not been thrust into the breech. Ukraine will always be the useful idiot to western governments as long as the lunatic Nazi fringe are encouraged and financed by them. As it is they must be really pissed at losing the massive economic potential of the eastern oblasts. Karma can be a bitch. In any event, thank you for the rose colored glasses view of events in Ukraine over the past 8 1/2 years. Now where is file 9?
Bill, please point to examples (include references in popular media) that support the notion that Ukraine is "Nazi-backed." Otherwise, STFU.